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rabbott
Posts: 1649
Posted 17:19 Mar 09, 2018 |

There has been a long-standing debate in biology about whether it makes sense to talk about group selection. The orthodox theory is that selection and evolution work at the level of individuals only. A minority, including David Sloan Wilson, one of the strongest proponents of group selection, argue that it makes perfect sense to talk about group selection. Successful countries, religions, cultures, etc. succeed where less successful ones fail. 

The results we talked about with Generous TFT (or other generous strategies) offer an argument in favor of group selection. Individual Generous strategies do not thrive on their own, but populations of Generous individuals overtake populations of selfish ones. 

Here is a nice discussion by Wilson. Be sure at least to read about Muir's chicken experiment towards the start of the article. 

Last edited by rabbott at 17:20 Mar 09, 2018.
RobertKarapet
Posts: 20
Posted 22:35 Mar 09, 2018 |

Countries fail because they work against evolution. 

I am Armenian, and I have seen Assyria, Babylon, Rome and many others fail, but I have not. 

People might think Armenians have survived all these years through all those calamities because they are united and they follow a common well established group agenda, yet it is, I take it, a wrong assumption. My claim is that Armenians have survived because they have never resorted to tribalism. Individualism has always been at the core of the Armenian culture. Thus, we have survived first as individual human beings, and only then as Armenians. 

The United States were doing great for a while because it used to be more of a libertarian society. Now, we are having a lot of problems because we have swerved from the wisdom of the founding fathers. We have turned into more of a group oriented society. 

I disagree with Wilson, and I would love to challenge him to a blackboard discussion. 

 

   

 

 

 

rabbott
Posts: 1649
Posted 07:46 Mar 10, 2018 |

Before you can say that, you have to clarify what you mean by "Armenians have survived because they have never resorted to tribalism. Individualism has always been at the core of the Armenian culture. Thus, we have survived first as individual human beings, and only then as Armenians."

When do they put survival as Armenians over survival as individuals? To put it another way, if Armenian A has less wealth than Armenian B under what circumstances would A steal from B? If the answer is "never" that means that tribalism as you call it trumps individualism. If the answer is "always" that means that the group is unlikely to survive very long because they will all kill each other, as in the chicken experiment. 

In fact if individualism is the highest good why would anyone even talk about the survival of the group as such? No one would care about a group identity, only about themselves as individuals.

Last edited by rabbott at 07:48 Mar 10, 2018.
RobertKarapet
Posts: 20
Posted 21:21 Mar 10, 2018 |

To "you have to clarify what you mean by "Armenians have survived because they have ..."

If you look at the Armenian culture from a technical perspective, you shall see that it has exact, uniform qualities with both the East and the West, and both the North and the South. So what are you to conclude? 

1. Armenian culture is a mix of all the world cultures (Armenian letters were found in Bolivian caves -> all the world means all the continents)

Or, 2. The Armenian culture has influenced human civilization to a great extent, but that is besides the point 

To your second point: A thief is a thief, and an Armenian thief is a thief as well. If you look at Armenian criminals in the US, you will see that they steal to equal extent from both Armenians and other cultures. Mind, Glendale (Armenian town) is in top 5 safest towns in the US. Armenians do not tend to steal or cause any trouble, and that is, I take it, a result of the individualist attributes of the culture. 

To "In fact if individualism is the highest good why would anyone even talk about the survival of the group as such ..."

Who is speaking about the survival of groups? It is the academia. Who is promoting identity politics? It is the academia. Who is in control of the academia, and who is in the academia? 

They divide us and thus they conquer. I, on my part, am skeptical when Wilson talks about group selection. He is a rather political person, and I shall not agree with him unless I take the time to either have a conversation with him or carefully read his books which I find 'intentionally confusing.' 

wcwir
Posts: 75
Posted 20:10 Mar 15, 2018 |

Here is something that I think might have been a confounding element in Muir's chicken study (though I haven't read the original paper - I'm basing this on a discussion between Wilson and Muir):

The high-egg producers were taken out of their groups to make a new group, while the control group remained undisturbed.

Is it possible that the high producers weren't aggressive to begin with, but became so because of the stress from being removed from their social group? If so, their chicks were socialized by stressed hens in violent environment - which could account for their behavior. 

The idea of group selection appeals to me politically - any scientific result that disproves Ayn Rand is music to my ears - but I think it is possible that in this study the violence was an artifact - a culture that arose from humans sticking a bunch of stressed out chickens in one coop.

Last edited by wcwir at 20:11 Mar 15, 2018.